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	<title>Comments on: Martin Fowler&#8217;s Syntactic Noise</title>
	<atom:link href="http://mikael.jansson.be/log/martin-fowlers-syntactic-noise/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://mikael.jansson.be/log/martin-fowlers-syntactic-noise</link>
	<description>The views of a hacker, hobby chef &#38; adrenaline junkie.</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jul 2010 15:59:28 +0000</pubDate>
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		<item>
		<title>By: Bill Birch</title>
		<link>http://mikael.jansson.be/log/martin-fowlers-syntactic-noise/comment-page-1#comment-2463</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Birch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Oct 2008 02:55:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mikael.jansson.be/journal/2008/06/martin-fowlers-syntactic-noise#comment-2463</guid>
		<description>Yes. Macros and templates.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes. Macros and templates.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mikael Jansson</title>
		<link>http://mikael.jansson.be/log/martin-fowlers-syntactic-noise/comment-page-1#comment-2409</link>
		<dc:creator>Mikael Jansson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Oct 2008 13:10:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mikael.jansson.be/journal/2008/06/martin-fowlers-syntactic-noise#comment-2409</guid>
		<description>Looks alright, but the question is how user-extensible it is.  Can you do macros?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Looks alright, but the question is how user-extensible it is.  Can you do macros?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Bill Birch</title>
		<link>http://mikael.jansson.be/log/martin-fowlers-syntactic-noise/comment-page-1#comment-1350</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Birch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jul 2008 14:16:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mikael.jansson.be/journal/2008/06/martin-fowlers-syntactic-noise#comment-1350</guid>
		<description>So MF's example in Genyris: 

&lt;pre&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
state-machine idle &lt;br /&gt;
&#160;&#160;events&lt;br /&gt;
&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;door-closed D1CL&lt;br /&gt;
&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;draw-opened D2OP&lt;br /&gt;
&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;light-on&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;L1ON&lt;br /&gt;
&#160;&lt;br /&gt;
&#160;&#160;commands&lt;br /&gt;
&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;lock-panel&#160;&#160;PNLK&lt;br /&gt;
&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;unlock-door D1UL&lt;br /&gt;
&#160;&lt;br /&gt;
&#160;&#160;state idle&lt;br /&gt;
&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;= door-closed active&lt;br /&gt;
&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;actions unlock-door lock-panel&lt;br /&gt;
&#160;&lt;br /&gt;
&#160;&#160;state active&lt;br /&gt;
&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;= draw-opened waiting-for-light&lt;br /&gt;
&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;= light-on&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;waiting-for-draw&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;/pre&gt;
Which is more readable to a non-Lisper?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So MF&#8217;s example in Genyris: </p>
<pre>
state-machine idle 
&nbsp;&nbsp;events
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;door-closed D1CL
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;draw-opened D2OP
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;light-on&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;L1ON
&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;commands
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;lock-panel&nbsp;&nbsp;PNLK
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;unlock-door D1UL
&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;state idle
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;= door-closed active
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;actions unlock-door lock-panel
&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;state active
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;= draw-opened waiting-for-light
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;= light-on&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;waiting-for-draw
</pre>
<p>Which is more readable to a non-Lisper?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Bill Birch</title>
		<link>http://mikael.jansson.be/log/martin-fowlers-syntactic-noise/comment-page-1#comment-1349</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Birch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jul 2008 14:08:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mikael.jansson.be/journal/2008/06/martin-fowlers-syntactic-noise#comment-1349</guid>
		<description>Yes there are two kinds of programmers those who are happy with () and those that ain’t.
Personally I was happy with most of the (), but it puts off most developers, including
many THWers! Hence I decided to build a parser which removed most of the parens so the majority of coders would not turn up their noses. 

The latest incarnation is in Genyris (http://sourceforge.net/projects/genyris/). This time the language is modified to suit indentation’s constraints, it looks like Ruby without ends. The rule is: If the indentation looks right the code will be too.

e.g.
&lt;pre&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
class Person ()&lt;br /&gt;
&#160;&#160; def !valid? (obj)&lt;br /&gt;
&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;obj&lt;br /&gt;
&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160; bound? !age&lt;br /&gt;
&#160;&lt;br /&gt;
class Boomer (Person)&lt;br /&gt;
&#160;&#160; def !valid? (obj)&lt;br /&gt;
&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;obj&lt;br /&gt;
&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160; between 45 !age 60&lt;br /&gt;
&#160;&lt;br /&gt;
class Hippie (Boomer)&lt;br /&gt;
&#160;&#160; def !valid? (obj)&lt;br /&gt;
&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;obj&lt;br /&gt;
&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160; bound? !bong&lt;br /&gt;
&#160;&lt;br /&gt;
define noel&lt;br /&gt;
&#160;&#160;dict&lt;br /&gt;
&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160; !name: &#34;Noel&#34;&lt;br /&gt;
&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160; !age: 49&lt;br /&gt;
&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160; !bong: true&lt;br /&gt;
&#160;&lt;br /&gt;
classify Person noel&lt;br /&gt;
&#160;&lt;br /&gt;
assert&lt;br /&gt;
&#160;&#160;and&lt;br /&gt;
&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;is-instance? noel Hippie&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;/pre&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes there are two kinds of programmers those who are happy with () and those that ain’t.<br />
Personally I was happy with most of the (), but it puts off most developers, including<br />
many THWers! Hence I decided to build a parser which removed most of the parens so the majority of coders would not turn up their noses. </p>
<p>The latest incarnation is in Genyris (http://sourceforge.net/projects/genyris/). This time the language is modified to suit indentation’s constraints, it looks like Ruby without ends. The rule is: If the indentation looks right the code will be too.</p>
<p>e.g.</p>
<pre>
class Person ()
&nbsp;&nbsp; def !valid? (obj)
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;obj
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; bound? !age
&nbsp;
class Boomer (Person)
&nbsp;&nbsp; def !valid? (obj)
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;obj
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; between 45 !age 60
&nbsp;
class Hippie (Boomer)
&nbsp;&nbsp; def !valid? (obj)
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;obj
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; bound? !bong
&nbsp;
define noel
&nbsp;&nbsp;dict
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; !name: &quot;Noel&quot;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; !age: 49
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; !bong: true
&nbsp;
classify Person noel
&nbsp;
assert
&nbsp;&nbsp;and
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;is-instance? noel Hippie
</pre>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mikael Jansson</title>
		<link>http://mikael.jansson.be/log/martin-fowlers-syntactic-noise/comment-page-1#comment-1005</link>
		<dc:creator>Mikael Jansson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 13:17:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mikael.jansson.be/journal/2008/06/martin-fowlers-syntactic-noise#comment-1005</guid>
		<description>Three things:

1. You already &lt;em&gt;do&lt;/em&gt; look at the indentation level, and not the parens;
2. ... moreover, most people change the paren color so they are close to the background color, making them actually disappear (mine are dark gray against a  black background);
3. the output of the parens inserter is awful:

&lt;pre&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
(defun factorial (n)&lt;br /&gt;
&#160;&#160;(if (&lt;= n 1)&lt;br /&gt;
&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;(the 1&lt;br /&gt;
&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;)(* n&lt;br /&gt;
&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;(factorial (- n 1)&lt;br /&gt;
))))&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;/pre&gt;

Nobody would indent their code nor place their parens like that. Instead, they would write:

&lt;pre&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
(defun factorial (n)&lt;br /&gt;
&#160;&#160;(if (&lt;= n 1)&lt;br /&gt;
&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;(the 1)&lt;br /&gt;
&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;(* n (factorial (- n 1)))))&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;/pre&gt;

Frankly, I don't see the point of the Lispin project.  But, to each his own!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Three things:</p>
<p>1. You already <em>do</em> look at the indentation level, and not the parens;<br />
2. &#8230; moreover, most people change the paren color so they are close to the background color, making them actually disappear (mine are dark gray against a  black background);<br />
3. the output of the parens inserter is awful:</p>
<pre>
(defun factorial (n)
&nbsp;&nbsp;(if (&lt;= n 1)
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;(the 1
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;)(* n
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;(factorial (- n 1)
))))
</pre>
<p>Nobody would indent their code nor place their parens like that. Instead, they would write:</p>
<pre>
(defun factorial (n)
&nbsp;&nbsp;(if (&lt;= n 1)
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;(the 1)
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;(* n (factorial (- n 1)))))
</pre>
<p>Frankly, I don&#8217;t see the point of the Lispin project.  But, to each his own!</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Robert Kasanicky</title>
		<link>http://mikael.jansson.be/log/martin-fowlers-syntactic-noise/comment-page-1#comment-1004</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Kasanicky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 13:08:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mikael.jansson.be/journal/2008/06/martin-fowlers-syntactic-noise#comment-1004</guid>
		<description>Most of the 'noisy' parentheses are not strictly necessary, indentation alone can work too - see http://www.lispin.org/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Most of the &#8216;noisy&#8217; parentheses are not strictly necessary, indentation alone can work too - see <a href="http://www.lispin.org/" rel="nofollow">http://www.lispin.org/</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
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